Normally a Champleve get grinded after enamelling. So it is not a problem to overfill the cells. That avoids, that the rims of the cells become black. RESTRICTION: If you the enamel and the metal have grinded to a flat level, you may not fire the work piece again. Otherwise the borders becomes black again.

Edmund

www.emailkunst.de

'I'm not sure, whether the first sketch was realy clear. Therefore here a second one.

The visible metal of the  "cock" is not gilded or so. It is made from a copper alloy 15/85 Zinc/Copper. This alloy oxidise  also, if it is glowing red . But by overfilling the cells, no black oxidising  at the borders of the cell take place.

Can you please tell us, whether this answers solve you Problem?

Thank you

Edmund 

I'm sorry Ramsey, I read your post by now a bit more accurately. And I understand the problem primal now.
It is always so, that you a black rim of a mix of copper cinder and enamel get, if you firing an enamel on a copper surface without any borderline between the copper surface and enamel. That is unavoidable.
Because it is a mix from copper-cinder and enamel it is only strong dissoluble in any etching-solution. You can try a mix of 10% Potash Alum + 90% water, warm about 50 degree Celsius.  It can loosen the black a bit, but not realy remove. If you use a stronger etching solution, you should the enamel with wax or etch-resist protect.
The rest of the black you can only remove mechanically. Use a flex shaft and  diamond-wheels or cutting bits with fine diamond grains. Also Silicon-carbide and Aluminium-oxide disks works well.  (See: http://www.ottofrei.com/Separating-Disks-Cut-Off-Wheels/  ) After removing the black, polish the metal with Cer-oxid and a felt-wheel. All the grinding and polishing you should make with a lot of water. Otherwise the diamond tools become very quick blunt.  

Edmund

   Edmund, I really appreciate your three posts, they were really clear to me, but definitely,the third one goes straight to the main thing. It looks like a mix of copper cinder and enamel. I really would like to get the relief of the enamel just as you show in your second post. I know I pretend to leave a lot of bare copper in the plate and it might be a problem.I am trying tonight to work and try to remove it with two diamond wheel points I had got for my Dremel time ago. Here is one of them :

   I don't know if I should use water with this, like you told, or these points work without it.  I will tell you how it goes as soon as I do it.

   One more question, in champleve, when you grind the piece to get even the enamel and the parts of the plate that are bare copper, I am not sure, but I think you have to fire it one more time it to get the bright again . Does not the bare copper get firescale and oxidation with that firing again? And if it got oxidation, how do you make the bare copper look good again without damagin the enamel? I have read that if you drop the piece with enamel inside sulfuric acid with water or nitric acid with water too to clean the copper as I have done many times, it might damage the enamel.

Thank you very much for your attention.

Fernando

Hallo Fernando,

Using the Diamond Tools with water conserved the Tools.

After grinding with Diamond bands up to 800-1000 grains, I fire my workpiece not again. I polish the whole surface with a felt wheel, water and Cer-oxide. After that I wax the whole surface with the rest of a white candle. I use white wax instead of bees-wax, in order the enamel surfaces not to discolor. I like the silk-like enamel surface more, than the a bit hard high gloss.
There are some chemical/electronic methods to remove the cinder and to make the metal shiny at the same time. Because this methods are all on dangerous acids (Sulfuric-, Nitric-, Phosphoric-acid and as additives Natrium-chloride or gloss-carbon black. ) based, I don't like to show the composition here. In this forum are too much people, without any chemical knowledge.
In the internet I found some German supplier, who sells such solutions. If you are interested I can send you the Addresses via E-Mail: massow@emailkunst.de
In German these etching solutions are  "Gelbbrenne" or Glanzbrenne" called. My English dictonary translated it as "Pickle" , "Pickle-bath", "pickling acid" and  "yellow coloring matter".
The "Google translator" called it in Spanish "Brenne Amarillo, Brenne brillo".  May be, you find some compositions in your language in the Internet.
I found only one German book to the theme: "electrolitic glossing". Here the title:

Buhlert, M.: Elektropolieren - Elektrolytisches Glänzen, Glätten und Entgraten von Edelstahl, Stahl, Messing, Kupfer, Aluminium und Titan. Eugen G. Leuze Verlag, Bad Saulgau, 2009.

Edmund

   Thanks for your post again Edmund, I cleaned it with the diamond wheel little point and water, and it worked really good, a very clean work without scratching the copper so much. But since I am a bit stubborn, I tried to fired it again because the enamel sides I had grinded, and the result was a very very tiny rim, almost nothing.

(I'm sorry cause the pic is not very focused)

I will try to clean the copper and give it a patina. I will put the result here. 

Thanks again.

Fernando

Hallo Fernando,

That is super, that you a satisfactory result found. To be stubborn is very often very good. It is very sometimes so, that the experts say: "That is impossible". But if you try it out, it works often anyway. Sometimes the "knowledge" of the "experts" is obsolete!!

Edmund

   Thanks Edmund, but without your expert knowledge, I would be still lost. Thanks again and I will show the results of my work.

Fernando

    Edmund, I found these diamond sand pads:   Do you think they would work fine to polish where I grinded with the diamond wheel point on the enamel to take out the black rim?. They have them on 800 and 1800 grains.Being flexible pads, they might help me to sand the enamel leaving the relief i want.I would try both pads, and then finish polishing with the cer-orxide. 

Many thanks.

Fernando

Hello Fernando,
the enameller used diamond tools preferred to grind  enamel surfaces. To grind away the oxide scale and the metal surface only, silicon carbide- or carborundum- materials are absolute adequate. Diamond-material brings here no advantage.

Edmund

Hallo Fernando,
 for a friend I'm even looking for some articles in Glass on Metal. Thereby I found an own article re enamel grinding. If you are grinding often, it may by from interest to grind with electrical machines. I constructed a "Low cost wet grinding machine". The costs are under 100 Dollar (Without the Diamond-belts).  The description is in the PDF file below. The description is a bit more detailed as nescessary. There are 3 suggestions to fasten the machine. Most approved is the fastening shown in figure 4. It is very stable.
Edmund

   Thank you very much for the information, Edmund, it is so helpful to me.

Fernando

Hi, this is the final result, after I gave a patina to the area which has no enamel. Mostly it was achieved thanks to Edmund advices. 

Thanks and I would like to know what do you think about it.

Fernando

Fernando, what a lovely result! I wouldn't have thought to patinate the background of an enamel piece!

Hi Fernando,

Very good! I think that's exactly what you wanted to do. I have contributed just a few tips from my 50 years of email experience. The work you've done.
Edmund

   Here is the result of a second try, leaving the enamel and the plate at the same level, and with a blue/green patina.

    Thanks for all Edmund.

 Thanks Trish, I'll fire my reds and oranges at a lower temperature and less time, and will show here the results.

Hi - I am doing a lot of experimentation with champleve so this video was great! What did she brush onto the piece before she made the repairs and refired?

Thanks! Cathy

Hi everybody, my name is Fernando and I live in Spain. I came to enamel from the etching and the sculpture world. I'm just starting, my first attempts were with torch firing and now I have a kiln. I have done some test with little pieces to see my colors and they were fine. Now I am trying to do something that it is a kind of champleve, but not exactly the same.

Firstly, I etch my little plate of 6X10 cm.

I paste a vinyl mask (a kind of stick) on the plate

Then, I do my drawing , and with a little scalpel I cut off the areas I want to etch.

I put the plate in a plastic container in front of another plate ( they are separate around 2 cm. from each other with four plastic tops situated in the corners). Both plates have a copper wire on their backs and taped. The plate on the top, is the one i want to be etched. I cover them with a mix of copper sulfate and distilled water, and connect both wires  to the power supply, positive is the plate I want to be etched, and the negative to the other one.

(This is the back of the plate)

I check sometimes how it goes till it has the deep I want.

After that , I remove the tape and the vinyl, and wash the plate.

(The etched plate)

Once the plate is clean and degreased ( I clean them really carefully),  I prepare the base enamel with distilled water and binder (gum arabic), and fill the hollows I did etching it.

Well, I fired it a bit lower temperature cause i was going to put more enamels on its top.

Until them, everything is ok and I prepare a new layer of orange enamel which is clearly over the level of the plate but not out of the borders of the base enamel. I want to achieve a kind of  relief with the enamel.

I got it fired and here is the main problem, the enamel is ok except for a black borders surrounding it . I thought it was some enamel that came out, cause it looks like it is enamel burnt out. When i tried to remove it with sand paper, I scratched and stained the enamel of the center ( the one which looked good) and it was hard to remove, I tried with a fine lime and finally i got it out with a carborundum stone and water, but i scratched the bare copper. Then i needed to sand the bare copper and again the same problem with the enamel.

(After the orange firing, you can see the black borders)

(The plate after the sand, lime and carborundum stone tries )

After sanded it again i put again some (just a very few in the center) enamel on the top of the orange layer( brown) and fired it again (it looks with some stains, i think because of the sand)

Then again the same horrible borders.

   I don't know how to avoid it or to get out those borders. I need the bare copper well sanded cause i want to give it a patina to finish the plate. 

   I have seen these two vids here about champleve, that were really helpful to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DhKVDKw1mc&list=PL8A8015BE5D4E4903

http://grainsofglass.ning.com/group/champleve/forum/topics/champleve-by-michele-gilbert-france

I see they  get even the copper and the enamel with a kind of emery stone or sand with a drill.  Even I cannot use this method in this process because i want the enamel higher than the copper level. I would like what kind of stone or sand they use in those drills, cause if I couldn´t go further on this, I would like to try the champleve way.

  Any help will be really welcome, and if anybody is interest in anything of what I am working it, I will try to answer him as well as I can.  Thanks in advance.

Well, I'm apologize for the long post, i guess this is the right place to post it, if I had to move to other specific site, tell it to me and i will do it.