Klyrfire substitutes

    • 6 posts
    November 20, 2017 2:46 AM EST
    Hello all, I have been enameling for several years now, mostly in the georgian minankari technique that uses no gum to hold the grains. Now I am interested to try new methods-ie stensiling, enameling non-flat objects an so on.
    i am looking for a substitute of klyrfire (some mention alcohol, traganath, hair spray) and proportions in which those substitutes are used with water and the types of sprayer bottles. Will be very thankfull if you share your experiences or give me a link if this was discussed in our forum earlier.
    Thanks!
    • Moderator
    • 114 posts
    November 20, 2017 7:45 AM EST

    Hi Anna,

    I believe you have all the substitutes for Klyrfire. If using a flat piece of metal, the holding agent is not necessary- just a fine mist of water  - 

    Liquid Enamel can also be used as a binder to hold your dry enamels in place. You can kill two birds with one stone by firing a counter enamel and base coat at the same time.  - paint a layer of liquid enamel on the back side of the metal, and sift the counter enamel into it while its wet. Dry the piece, turn it over and sift a base coat of enamel on the front. This helps the expansion of metal and glass equalize when cooling and lessens the chance of warping.

     There is also Squeegee oil and oil of lavender that are often used with painting enamels. Artist, Katy Bergman Cassell found that using Squeegee oil was the best binder to use for the complex dimensional forms because it dries slower than water binders. 

    • 16 posts
    November 20, 2017 2:05 PM EST

    I use sometimes CMC, which I think I had got from Enamelwork Supply a zillion years ago. I dilute 3.5g in 100g of boiling water (it has to boil and be stirred for some time to dissolve well). Then I let it cool and it lasts for a couple of months. In these proportions it makes a rather sticky glue. I use it the same way I'd use Klyr-fire.

    • 6 posts
    November 20, 2017 2:09 PM EST
    Thanks, Trish. I just have read about all the holding agents, but never used'em . Will hairspray actully work and not cloud the enamels? I got interested in the spraying method after watchin this tutorial by Jan Harell https://youtu.be/lJuzhRGpA7I -she insists on spraying the surface with aerosol
    • Moderator
    • 114 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:26 PM EST
    Vincent Paeder said:

    I use sometimes CMC, which I think I had got from Enamelwork Supply a zillion years ago. I dilute 3.5g in 100g of boiling water (it has to boil and be stirred for some time to dissolve well). Then I let it cool and it lasts for a couple of months. In these proportions it makes a rather sticky glue. I use it the same way I'd use Klyr-fire.

     

    • Moderator
    • 114 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:27 PM EST

    Wow Vincent that sounds like extra work!! Do you then brush it on or dilute it enough that it can be sprayed?

    • Moderator
    • 114 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:32 PM EST
    Anna Margolis said:
    Thanks, Trish. I just have read about all the holding agents, but never used'em . Will hairspray actully work and not cloud the enamels? I got interested in the spraying method after watchin this tutorial by Jan Harell https://youtu.be/lJuzhRGpA7I -she insists on spraying the surface with aerosol

     

    • Moderator
    • 114 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:35 PM EST

    Jan is using Klyr Fire mixed with water and a spray bottle attachment that has air. 

    I have not used Hairspray but it is alcohol and will burn off in the kiln so I see no problem with the enamels and I have heard it used by other artists.  I think it might be messy as the aerosol hairspray will land on your work surface and be sticky. I generally do use the same product as Jan, and you will find most workshops that are taught have the same sprayer.


    This post was edited by Trish White at November 20, 2017 5:35 PM EST
    • 6 posts
    November 20, 2017 5:48 PM EST
    Thanks. The problem is -I am not in the US and it will take some time before I can get klyr by mail, also this special aerosol pressure bottle only ships within the US and I am having trouble finding such a device in my hometown, so that is why I am looking for nice substitutes
    • 16 posts
    November 21, 2017 3:30 PM EST
    Trish White said:

    Wow Vincent that sounds like extra work!! Do you then brush it on or dilute it enough that it can be sprayed?

    Well not really, I leave it to stew on the hot plate with the magnetic stirrer on and come back to it an hour later. I use it mixed with a bit of enamel and I wet-pack. With 3.5g CMC/100g water, it's a bit viscous so to spray I'd dilute it somewhat. Brushing works ok, although it can do with a bit of surfactant (I use one called Surfynol 465, but anything water-soluble that reduces surface tension should do).

    • 3 posts
    July 24, 2019 4:03 PM EDT

    Hairspray works with opaque enamels only, it will cloud transparent enamels. I sometimes use a pump hairspray for bowls.

    best wishes Gisela

    • 6 posts
    April 30, 2020 12:39 PM EDT

    Anna,

    Geargian Minankari artists are using traganath, if you are in Russia - you can find it in livemaster.ru.

    • 6 posts
    April 30, 2020 12:40 PM EDT

    There is also lily root powder, similar to traganath.

    • 77 posts
    July 30, 2020 10:07 AM EDT

    I use  since more than 50 years very successful Wall-Paper-Glue. Make at first a thick solution, and thin it than with desilled wator so as you need it. Thicker solution hold very strong cloisonné-wires on steeply areas. very strong thinned it is perfect for spraying and holding enamel powder also on vertcal sufaces. Spray at firs a thin layer of thinned wallpaper glue to the metal, powder an also thin shift of enamel over this. than spray again only so much glue, that the on sieved powdwer get moistered. Than again enamel powder. If nescessary a new spray and a new powder sieving. mostly are 3 times well. At last spray glue again, so that the on sieved enamel is light dump, but not wet. Dry and fire.

    Good luck

    edmund

    • 57 posts
    September 27, 2020 3:49 AM EDT
    Edmund Massow said:

    I use  since more than 50 years very successful Wall-Paper-Glue. ...............

    Good luck

    edmund

     

    Thank you Edmund - the glue is very good.

     

    • 1 posts
    November 8, 2020 3:05 AM EST
    I've looked at the MSDS of klyr-fire and luckily it listed the composition. It's a 3% solution if methyl ethyl cellulose. So that's 97 parts water, 3 parts methyl ethyl cellulose, by weight. If you want to make your own, sift the cellulose slowly into the water, with stirring, let it sit overnight to make sure all the cellulose grains have hydrated. I also recommend something to prevent spoilage. I think some alcohol might work, just substitute it for some of the water. The important part is the 3% concentration of the cellulose.

    Hope that helps!