Cloisonné » Discussions

Silver Foil troubles

• Eileen Schneegas

  

  Member
   

  October 17, 2010

  Oval piece of copper, flux, fine silver foil (yes, perforated), more flux, wires, fire, then LF purple, fired then BUBBLES-I think after firing the purples with transparent black.  Never could get the things out, stoned it, high fired it, etc.  So, trying this piece again.  Oval copper, flux, fine silver, flux (this base part was started a while ago-just getting back to it), added more perforated silver foil, fired, then a coat of 250 mesh sky blue over all.  The new foil has wrinkles in it, but that is okay by me.  The first firing was not totally clear, so 2nd fired around 1550F, now there shows a tear mark in part of the silver, the new layer I think.  Maybe I'm doing everything wrong!  I've had tear marks before, but don't know how to avoid those or the bubbles which start near the silver layer. Want to avoid both tears and bubbles.  Adivice anyone?  I'm all self taught on the cloisonne method.Thanks. Willing to start base fresh if I must.  Eileen

  Oval piece of copper, flux, fine silver foil (yes, perforated), more flux, wires, fire, then LF purple, fired then BUBBLES-I think after firing the purples with transparent black.  Never could get the things out, stoned it, high fired it, etc.  So, trying this piece again.  Oval copper, flux, fine silver, flux (this base part was started a while ago-just getting back to it), added more perforated silver foil, fired, then a coat of 250 mesh sky blue over all.  The new foil has wrinkles in it, but that is okay by me.  The first firing was not totally clear, so 2nd fired around 1550F, now there shows a tear mark in part of the silver, the new layer I think.  Maybe I'm doing everything wrong!  I've had tear marks before, but don't know how to avoid those or the bubbles which start near the silver layer. Want to avoid both tears and bubbles.  Adivice anyone?  I'm all self taught on the cloisonne method.Thanks. Willing to start base fresh if I must.  Eileen
• Edmund Massow

  

  Member
   

  October 18, 2010

  Little wrinkles are normal if you use silverfoil. Why did you apply 250 mesh transparent over silver? Normally one uses rather coarser enamels over silver. Could you us a foto from your work show. Maybe somebody can see what runs wrong.
  Edmund

  Little wrinkles are normal if you use silverfoil. Why did you apply 250 mesh transparent over silver? Normally one uses rather coarser enamels over silver. Could you us a foto from your work show. Maybe somebody can see what runs wrong. Edmund
• Joanne Smith

  

  Member
   

  October 18, 2010

  Hi Eileen- I am no expert by any means but my instructor- taught me to use Kylr-fire glue to applying silver or gold foil. It is a very thin glue and not much of it is needed. You can allow it to dry before applying your enamels and firing. It is available from lots of places like Whole lotta Whimsy or Rio grande. Let me know if this helps.

  Hi Eileen- I am no expert by any means but my instructor- taught me to use Kylr-fire glue to applying silver or gold foil. It is a very thin glue and not much of it is needed. You can allow it to dry before applying your enamels and firing. It is available from lots of places like Whole lotta Whimsy or Rio grande. Let me know if this helps.
• Eileen Schneegas

  

  Member
   

  October 19, 2010

  Joanne-I use a diluted Klyr-fire in most of my work, but the foil should stick even with water. Too much K-f can also cause problems. Edmund-because the prior attempt used well washed 80 mesh, I decided to try finer mesh this time, hoping to reduce air pockets. Wrinkles don't bother me, but the rip does. That may be a heat issue? A detail of the Raven is hopefully attached. There is no bubbling in the blue, just in the Raven body-like he got caught in the rain or dew. Photo taken before I stoned more and flash fired again. Nothing changed with enamel added or after stoning again. I want to avoid this in future. A suggestion at the time was to avoid using 2020 flux under the raven, thus the sky blue instead. I'll take a photo of the new base w/rip. I do tear the edges of my foil & slightyly overlap if I have to patch, as one does on large pieces. I'm playing with patching to see effects of that on a smaller piece. Everything tends to be experimental with me. I have taken a 2 year break from cloisonne, (Raven done in 08), so will have forgotten any number of things!

  Joanne-I use a diluted Klyr-fire in most of my work, but the foil should stick even with water. Too much K-f can also cause problems. Edmund-because the prior attempt used well washed 80 mesh, I decided to try finer mesh this time, hoping to reduce air pockets. Wrinkles don't bother me, but the rip does. That may be a heat issue? A detail of the Raven is hopefully attached. There is no bubbling in the blue, just in the Raven body-like he got caught in the rain or dew. Photo taken before I stoned more and flash fired again. Nothing changed with enamel added or after stoning again. I want to avoid this in future. A suggestion at the time was to avoid using 2020 flux under the raven, thus the sky blue instead. I'll take a photo of the new base w/rip. I do tear the edges of my foil & slightyly overlap if I have to patch, as one does on large pieces. I'm playing with patching to see effects of that on a smaller piece. Everything tends to be experimental with me. I have taken a 2 year break from cloisonne, (Raven done in 08), so will have forgotten any number of things!
• Edmund Massow

  

  Member
   

  October 21, 2010

  Hallo Eileen,
  sorry, at first I do not understand your input, because I translated the term "tears" with "water from the Eye". Now I had a look into my very good university Dictionary "Kassels" and it says "tears" are synonymical with "crack" or "rift". And now I understand your question.
  Tears (Cracks) in silver foils have mostly two causes.
  1) The foil is too thin. Use only silver foils from your enamel supplier. Foils used by gilders or bookbinders, whether of silver or gold, are to thin for enameling.
  or if you use enamelling foils
  2) The second firing is too high. If you melt on the foil in a first firing onto the enamel layer, the foil is compact bonded with the enamel. If you now do a second firing which is higher than the first one, the first enamel layer becomes a more lower viscosity, and flows broader asunder. The on the first enamel layer adhering foil can not follow the broadening and the foil tears. That happen mostly on the borders of the foils.
  I hope my english is good enough to elucidate the causes.
  
  Your second question.
  250 mesh enamel do not avert air bubbles. Better is to use fresh milled enamel of 60-80 mesh. Important is to make the enamel layers not to thick. If I enameling on silver (mostly fine silver) I applying several layers, allways with a firing in between, make. Each layer is not thicker than one enamel grain. So you get realy transparent enamel-shift and if you work accurately also no air bubbles.
  Edmund

  Hallo Eileen, sorry, at first I do not understand your input, because I translated the term "tears" with "water from the Eye". Now I had a look into my very good university Dictionary "Kassels" and it says "tears" are synonymical with "crack" or "rift". And now I understand your question. Tears (Cracks) in silver foils have mostly two causes. 1) The foil is too thin. Use only silver foils from your enamel supplier. Foils used by gilders or bookbinders, whether of silver or gold, are to thin for enameling. or if you use enamelling foils 2) The second firing is too high. If you melt on the foil in a first firing onto the enamel layer, the foil is compact bonded with the enamel. If you now do a second firing which is higher than the first one, the first enamel layer becomes a more lower viscosity, and flows broader asunder. The on the first enamel layer adhering foil can not follow the broadening and the foil tears. That happen mostly on the borders of the foils. I hope my english is good enough to elucidate the causes. Your second question. 250 mesh enamel do not avert air bubbles. Better is to use fresh milled enamel of 60-80 mesh. Important is to make the enamel layers not to thick. If I enameling on silver (mostly fine silver) I applying several layers, allways with a firing in between, make. Each layer is not thicker than one enamel grain. So you get realy transparent enamel-shift and if you work accurately also no air bubbles. Edmund
• Eileen Schneegas

  

  Member
   

  October 21, 2010

  Thank you Edmund-English is a very difficult language when many words are spelled the same but have different meanings that seem dependent on spoken pronounciation! I too prefer enameling on fine silver but the trend in the USA has been to sandwich fine silver foil over the less expensive copper. The foil prevents the eutetic response of silver wire sinking to the level of the copper. While I studied in the UK, common practice was using British Sterling Silver for jewelry pieces and indeed, 1 grain thickness was common for layers in Champleve & Cloisonne. I did not know the reasoning. We were also taught to grind enamels(fresh mill) from larger frit (with a mortar & pestle), what many here tend to call 'lump' enamel. Much finer results. So, many applications to this art form. I also checked back to the answers Patsy gave about cracking, and I might have some work to do in testing. I do try to use all the same products in one enamel project, I see that enamel response is not certain unless one does the testing. Back to the drawing board as we say (start over), think first, then test for compatable melting. My enamel 'education' is a bit short in technical knowledge. Time for me to figure it out, at least for Cloisonne! Eileen

  Thank you Edmund-English is a very difficult language when many words are spelled the same but have different meanings that seem dependent on spoken pronounciation! I too prefer enameling on fine silver but the trend in the USA has been to sandwich fine silver foil over the less expensive copper. The foil prevents the eutetic response of silver wire sinking to the level of the copper. While I studied in the UK, common practice was using British Sterling Silver for jewelry pieces and indeed, 1 grain thickness was common for layers in Champleve & Cloisonne. I did not know the reasoning. We were also taught to grind enamels(fresh mill) from larger frit (with a mortar & pestle), what many here tend to call 'lump' enamel. Much finer results. So, many applications to this art form. I also checked back to the answers Patsy gave about cracking, and I might have some work to do in testing. I do try to use all the same products in one enamel project, I see that enamel response is not certain unless one does the testing. Back to the drawing board as we say (start over), think first, then test for compatable melting. My enamel 'education' is a bit short in technical knowledge. Time for me to figure it out, at least for Cloisonne! Eileen
• Eileen Schneegas

  

  Member
   

  December 9, 2010

  NEW Cloisonne concern: I have a wall piece that I made in 1997. It has been matted & framed & (unfortunately!) also glassed in. Until recently I have had no luck talking framers out of matting that has to be protected by picture glass. Glass under glass just does nothing for enamels generally-IMHO-but some of my thin stuff and experiments might need it to protect both the viewer/owner & maybe stabilize the atmospheric influence, I'm no scientist. Back to the point: this was cloisonne done on enameled iron tile- circle, with silver foil over an additional clear coat of enamel plus another coat of clear over the foil before laying the wires and then the enamels. At the lower left edge of this enamel, the glass started chipping off under all the framing and matting. All the way down to the foil layer. I am planning to attempt a repair (if I can find my color notes!) after the holidays, so want some advice on how best to attempt this. I know that I DO NOT get this wet, but to degrease the surface I could either lightly rub over it with a paper towel dampened with Klyr fire OR I could put it in the kiln for a short time before adding the repair glass. I do know that enamels will tend to pull away from the edges of a piece when refiring. I also know that the moisture in the air can settle on the surface or even at the edge of the break and may siphon under the break. This would be bad news when reheating the piece. So, any advice on the best methods to approach and effect the repair would be welcome. I am trying to get a file photo uploaded which isn't working at the moment. Will persevere! Eileen

  NEW Cloisonne concern: I have a wall piece that I made in 1997. It has been matted & framed & (unfortunately!) also glassed in. Until recently I have had no luck talking framers out of matting that has to be protected by picture glass. Glass under glass just does nothing for enamels generally-IMHO-but some of my thin stuff and experiments might need it to protect both the viewer/owner & maybe stabilize the atmospheric influence, I'm no scientist. Back to the point: this was cloisonne done on enameled iron tile- circle, with silver foil over an additional clear coat of enamel plus another coat of clear over the foil before laying the wires and then the enamels. At the lower left edge of this enamel, the glass started chipping off under all the framing and matting. All the way down to the foil layer. I am planning to attempt a repair (if I can find my color notes!) after the holidays, so want some advice on how best to attempt this. I know that I DO NOT get this wet, but to degrease the surface I could either lightly rub over it with a paper towel dampened with Klyr fire OR I could put it in the kiln for a short time before adding the repair glass. I do know that enamels will tend to pull away from the edges of a piece when refiring. I also know that the moisture in the air can settle on the surface or even at the edge of the break and may siphon under the break. This would be bad news when reheating the piece. So, any advice on the best methods to approach and effect the repair would be welcome. I am trying to get a file photo uploaded which isn't working at the moment. Will persevere! Eileen