METAL CLAY & Enamels » Discussions

USING ENAMELS OF METAL CLAY

• Trish White

  

  Leader
   

  November 26, 2010

  I would love to hear back from all of the Metal Clay artists who are using enamels on Metal Clay, as I am having great difficulty with the change in color of my enamels on the metal clay. I applied a Japanese lt. pink transparent and it came out of the kiln gold. Are there

  certain colors that cannot be applied?

  I would love to hear back from all of the Metal Clay artists who are using enamels on Metal Clay, as I am having great difficulty with the change in color of my enamels on the metal clay. I applied a Japanese lt. pink transparent and it came out of the kiln gold. Are there

  certain colors that cannot be applied?
• Joni Rae Doyle

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  I don't have much luck with orange, red, pink or purple enamels on PMC. I gravitate to blue, green, brown...more earth tones anyway, and use those in most of my enameling on silver. The other colors burn out quickly and do appear quite different on silver as compared to copper. Thompson has that color chart that shows what the finished enamels look like on different metals, that helps a bit, but I've also found that the colors change, as you mentioned with the pink turning to gold. I think it's most important to get the piece out of the kiln early if you're using red/pink/orange, to ensure that the color hasn't burned out or changed yet, you can always fire the piece again if you brought it out too early.

  I don't have much luck with orange, red, pink or purple enamels on PMC. I gravitate to blue, green, brown...more earth tones anyway, and use those in most of my enameling on silver. The other colors burn out quickly and do appear quite different on silver as compared to copper. Thompson has that color chart that shows what the finished enamels look like on different metals, that helps a bit, but I've also found that the colors change, as you mentioned with the pink turning to gold. I think it's most important to get the piece out of the kiln early if you're using red/pink/orange, to ensure that the color hasn't burned out or changed yet, you can always fire the piece again if you brought it out too early.
• Margaret O'Brien

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  Many of the colors will react to silver. I recommend making a sample plate with each of the colors you plan to use or all of the colors you have for future reference. Take a sheet of fine silver divide it out into twice as many squares as you have colors (they don't have to be big). Scribe the name or number of the enamel across two squares (or make a reference sheet you will not lose!) I wet pack a little clear for silver on the left squares of each color and fire it. Then wet pack the color across both the square with clear and without, and fire (I do all my colors at once except reds) This way you can see the colors' reactions to touching silver and what it looks like with a clear barrier. Reds tend to lose color with too much heat so I do those separately with a shorter firing time.
  I do know Thompson's purples hate silver, besides that you'll probably need to test!
  Good luck!

  Many of the colors will react to silver. I recommend making a sample plate with each of the colors you plan to use or all of the colors you have for future reference. Take a sheet of fine silver divide it out into twice as many squares as you have colors (they don't have to be big). Scribe the name or number of the enamel across two squares (or make a reference sheet you will not lose!) I wet pack a little clear for silver on the left squares of each color and fire it. Then wet pack the color across both the square with clear and without, and fire (I do all my colors at once except reds) This way you can see the colors' reactions to touching silver and what it looks like with a clear barrier. Reds tend to lose color with too much heat so I do those separately with a shorter firing time. I do know Thompson's purples hate silver, besides that you'll probably need to test! Good luck!
• Trish White

  

  Leader
   

  November 26, 2010

  I do use fine silver and sterling a lot and am familiar with the color changes , but I was quite surprised to have the light pink which looked beautiful on a fine silver sample, come out gold on the metal clay.
  Do you find that opaques work better than the transparents?

  I do use fine silver and sterling a lot and am familiar with the color changes , but I was quite surprised to have the light pink which looked beautiful on a fine silver sample, come out gold on the metal clay. Do you find that opaques work better than the transparents?
• Ann Davis

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  Did you fire a clear flux under the pink first? I'm getting beautiful reds and pinks doing that. but then I'm using leaded enamels, Soyer.

  Did you fire a clear flux under the pink first? I'm getting beautiful reds and pinks doing that. but then I'm using leaded enamels, Soyer.
• Tina Carvalho

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  I do a lot of enameling on silver clay. It IS important to make test strips, but you may still be getting surprises. The silver clay is more porous than rolled sheet, and so I believe there's more chance for the enamel to react. I think the most important thing is to make sure your silver is *as polished as you can get it*. For most of the warm colors you also need to make sure you have a good layer of flux, also making sure the wires are coated if doing cloisonne. With repeated firings, the silver salts may be able to make it up through the flux, so now I'm using three layers of flux, if practical. Look in my folder to find the dog face and dog other end. On the reverse I had two layers of flux and two layers of (unleaded) Thompson 2880 Woodrow Red, and it is blotchy and brown around the edges. On the front of the piece I had three layers of flux and three layers of red, and it came out OK.
  
  Some of the Japanese leaded enamels I've used seem to be fussier than the Thompson *leaded* enamels I've used, still requiring flux underneath, but less fussy than the *unleaded* enamels. I have a small fortune in silver clay test strips.
  
  Your pink becoming gold is really your pink turning light brown. I've had some success with (unleaded) Thompson 2830 orange-red ruby and 2810 geranium pink (they come out about the same color, so you only really need one, I prefer 2830). They do better over flux but they don't take as much effort as some other pinks or reds. On my nudibranch piece you can see a wide white line around the cloisonne wires with pink in the middle, but that's what I decided to do to make sure I got a pink that didn't turn gold/brown, probably overkill.
  
  For Thompson unleaded yellow, your best bet is 2230 lime yellow. I sometimes use 2215 egg yellow, but it turns very brown when exposed to silver. I'm doing a turtle right now, so having it brown where it touches the wires and yellow in the middle where it doesn't works for me. This only works in large cells; in small cells it turns brown all the way across.
  
  On the flip side, I spent some time yesterday doing color tests on copper, which I've used only once, and I'm absolutely astonished at how different they are than on silver! A whole new world for me.

  I do a lot of enameling on silver clay. It IS important to make test strips, but you may still be getting surprises. The silver clay is more porous than rolled sheet, and so I believe there's more chance for the enamel to react. I think the most important thing is to make sure your silver is *as polished as you can get it*. For most of the warm colors you also need to make sure you have a good layer of flux, also making sure the wires are coated if doing cloisonne. With repeated firings, the silver salts may be able to make it up through the flux, so now I'm using three layers of flux, if practical. Look in my folder to find the dog face and dog other end. On the reverse I had two layers of flux and two layers of (unleaded) Thompson 2880 Woodrow Red, and it is blotchy and brown around the edges. On the front of the piece I had three layers of flux and three layers of red, and it came out OK.
  
  Some of the Japanese leaded enamels I've used seem to be fussier than the Thompson *leaded* enamels I've used, still requiring flux underneath, but less fussy than the *unleaded* enamels. I have a small fortune in silver clay test strips.
  
  Your pink becoming gold is really your pink turning light brown. I've had some success with (unleaded) Thompson 2830 orange-red ruby and 2810 geranium pink (they come out about the same color, so you only really need one, I prefer 2830). They do better over flux but they don't take as much effort as some other pinks or reds. On my nudibranch piece you can see a wide white line around the cloisonne wires with pink in the middle, but that's what I decided to do to make sure I got a pink that didn't turn gold/brown, probably overkill.
  
  For Thompson unleaded yellow, your best bet is 2230 lime yellow. I sometimes use 2215 egg yellow, but it turns very brown when exposed to silver. I'm doing a turtle right now, so having it brown where it touches the wires and yellow in the middle where it doesn't works for me. This only works in large cells; in small cells it turns brown all the way across.
  
  On the flip side, I spent some time yesterday doing color tests on copper, which I've used only once, and I'm absolutely astonished at how different they are than on silver! A whole new world for me.
• Trish White

  

  Leader
   

  November 26, 2010

  No I didn't use flux under the pink on the metal clay or the fine silver. But it turned yellow on the clay and pink on the fine silver - go figure. The enamel I used is leaded Japanese - a beautiful pink on fine silver without flux - and a really nice gold on the metal clay - but it
  wasn't what I had intended. Perhaps the metal clay has something else in it that bothers the enamel more than fine enamel sheet.

  No I didn't use flux under the pink on the metal clay or the fine silver. But it turned yellow on the clay and pink on the fine silver - go figure. The enamel I used is leaded Japanese - a beautiful pink on fine silver without flux - and a really nice gold on the metal clay - but it wasn't what I had intended. Perhaps the metal clay has something else in it that bothers the enamel more than fine enamel sheet.
• Trish White

  

  Leader
   

  November 26, 2010

  I hate to use the Metal Clay as test strips because the price has shot up to over $46.00
  for a small package. I am confounded that since it is fine silver, why did my fine silver
  sheet come out all pink and pretty and the fine silver clay turn the enamel golden. I made three of the same pendants - I wanted them to be pink lotuses but now I have three golden ones. The color is wonderful and rich but not what I ordered.I believe there has to be something in the metal clay that causes the enamels to change. I also tried using a white opalescent and it came out of the kiln a cream color - I was not a happy camper. I think I will only be using the metal clay from now on as a setting and imbedding an enamel piece. It will be cheaper in the long run.
  Thanks so much,
  
  Trish

  I hate to use the Metal Clay as test strips because the price has shot up to over $46.00 for a small package. I am confounded that since it is fine silver, why did my fine silver sheet come out all pink and pretty and the fine silver clay turn the enamel golden. I made three of the same pendants - I wanted them to be pink lotuses but now I have three golden ones. The color is wonderful and rich but not what I ordered.I believe there has to be something in the metal clay that causes the enamels to change. I also tried using a white opalescent and it came out of the kiln a cream color - I was not a happy camper. I think I will only be using the metal clay from now on as a setting and imbedding an enamel piece. It will be cheaper in the long run. Thanks so much, Trish
• Ann Davis

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  Tina, excellent post!!! Your dog face/butt has always been one of my favorites!! I 'howled' the first time I saw it!!
  
  Well ya know, you get these same kind of color changes in lampworking, part of what makes that fun, but frustrating on silver. I find I am having to rethink my enameling on the metal clay as opposed to FS...Yes I personally find it different, I'm thinking it is the porous nature of the clay, perhaps you get a lot of atmosphere coming up through the back into the enamels??...the blues and greens turn out lovely but when you get into other colors....it gets funky...I do use a couple of layers of flux under my reds, If Tina says 3 then I'm gonna make sure I do that many from now on.... cause I've had some brown tinging on the edges where I didn't get enough flux...lesson learned....the hard way....I mean do we as artists ever do anything the easy way!!!! So anyway, I'm pretty much laying down a flux under everything right now:) Oh and I'm finding that the metal clay is so much fun to torch fire,,,maybe again, a subtle difference, but it goes so fast!!

  Tina, excellent post!!! Your dog face/butt has always been one of my favorites!! I 'howled' the first time I saw it!! Well ya know, you get these same kind of color changes in lampworking, part of what makes that fun, but frustrating on silver. I find I am having to rethink my enameling on the metal clay as opposed to FS...Yes I personally find it different, I'm thinking it is the porous nature of the clay, perhaps you get a lot of atmosphere coming up through the back into the enamels??...the blues and greens turn out lovely but when you get into other colors....it gets funky...I do use a couple of layers of flux under my reds, If Tina says 3 then I'm gonna make sure I do that many from now on.... cause I've had some brown tinging on the edges where I didn't get enough flux...lesson learned....the hard way....I mean do we as artists ever do anything the easy way!!!! So anyway, I'm pretty much laying down a flux under everything right now:) Oh and I'm finding that the metal clay is so much fun to torch fire,,,maybe again, a subtle difference, but it goes so fast!!
• Tina Carvalho

  

  Member
   

  November 26, 2010

  The fired metal clay is 99.99% fine silver, same as the sheet. I can speak with authority because I've done the X-ray analysis in the scanning electron microscope on it myself! What you do see in the SEM is that the clay is soooo much more porous, and it is sintered (glommed together), not melted together, so there is so much more surface area available to react with the enamel. Hence the need to polish as well as possible. Here's a test you can do ... polish up your silver clay piece after firing. Fire it again (just stick it in a hot kiln for several minutes). Look at it after it cools. It may look frosty like freshly-fired silver again. I take it to mean the pores have managed to open up a bit again (but I haven't looked in the SEM to prove this). Yes, if you do this to a sheet of fine silver it will also frost a bit, but not as much. (I think. I may be wrong.) But a layer of flux helps to seal the polished silver clay more. In fact, I do a layer of flux on the front and my counter enamel on the back at the same time so that neither surface of the silver clay piece is fired uncoated. If I don't, I make sure I polish the surface again.
  
  You can put a bit of gold foil under it...

  The fired metal clay is 99.99% fine silver, same as the sheet. I can speak with authority because I've done the X-ray analysis in the scanning electron microscope on it myself! What you do see in the SEM is that the clay is soooo much more porous, and it is sintered (glommed together), not melted together, so there is so much more surface area available to react with the enamel. Hence the need to polish as well as possible. Here's a test you can do ... polish up your silver clay piece after firing. Fire it again (just stick it in a hot kiln for several minutes). Look at it after it cools. It may look frosty like freshly-fired silver again. I take it to mean the pores have managed to open up a bit again (but I haven't looked in the SEM to prove this). Yes, if you do this to a sheet of fine silver it will also frost a bit, but not as much. (I think. I may be wrong.) But a layer of flux helps to seal the polished silver clay more. In fact, I do a layer of flux on the front and my counter enamel on the back at the same time so that neither surface of the silver clay piece is fired uncoated. If I don't, I make sure I polish the surface again. You can put a bit of gold foil under it...